Fast Food Memories

Odd how some of us get nostalgic for fast food restaurants. I remember Roy Rogers Roast Beef Sandwich restaurants in L.A. in 1968. When I started working with Jack Kirby in 1970, there was one not far from his home in Thousand Oaks. Sometimes on a Saturday afternoon, everyone in the Kirby house would caravan (usually took two cars) down there for lunch, where Jack would drive his wife Roz crazy by dipping his french fries in barbecue sauce. "You're supposed to put ketchup on french fries," she'd tell him — as if the police were likely to come by and bust him for Improper Use of a Condiment.

At the same time, there was a competing attempt to launch a chain of Lone Ranger Restaurants. Locally, there was one in Santa Monica and another at the corner of Pico Boulevard and Westwood — where now there's a huge mall called The Westside Pavilion. The Lone Ranger Restaurant was right where the Barnes & Noble is now situated. I recall the burgers at the Lone Ranger being amazingly close to inedible, which may be why the whole chain went under in less than two years, but the places did have one thing going for them. The Lone Ranger himself appeared often at the ones in Southern California…and I don't mean some actor in a Lone Ranger suit. I mean Clayton Moore himself. You could go, eat a terrible hamburger and meet Clayton Moore and get an autographed photo. He also had a little stash of silver bullets which he passed out to anyone who seemed to know a little Lone Ranger history. It almost made up for the food.

Earl Has a (Roast) Beef

Turning to more important matters, my buddy Earl Kress writes…

Hey, now just a minute! At least on the east coast, Roy Rogers' Roast Beef Sandwich was actually good! As opposed to Arby's which served something gray with little holes in it that they called roast beef. I haven't eaten in an Arby's since 1978.

To which I tell my buddy Earl Kress: Yes, once upon a time, Roy Rogers' Roast Beef Sandwich outlets did serve a great sandwich. Back in the early seventies when they were all over Los Angeles, they were just about the best of the fast food places. But things change. Their L.A. outlets all closed. I think they all turned into Bob's Big Boy Jr stands, and then some of them were bought by the Golden Bird Fried Chicken company. I missed them.

Around 1983, I was flown to an outta-town comic convention and as I was driven from the airport to the hotel, we passed a Roy Rogers. "You have them here?" I asked my driver with great excitement. He told me the whole town was lousy with them — and I guess the word "lousy" should have been a dead giveaway. The next day, I arranged for a group of us to lunch at one and, boy, what a disappointment. It was nothing like the old Roy Rogers Roast Beef Sandwich places of Southern California. It was even a cut below Arby's, where I've always thought they had one large lump of synthetic meat and no matter what you order — beef, ham, turkey, a milk shake, an Arby's t-shirt — they carve it from that lump. A few years later, for I am a fool who doesn't give up easily — I tried a Roy Rogers place in New York and had much the same reaction. Apparently, the chain has changed hands a few times over the years and, legalisms aside, the current Roy Rogers empire has nothing to do with the ones in which I dined in my late teens/early twenties. This is why we prize places like In-n-Out Burger, which still have the same owners and management they've always had. Some things just shouldn't change.

Comic Artist Website of the Day

Here's another guy who started out doing comics that looked a lot like his predecessors — in his case, Neal Adams — but quickly became a unique and welcome presence in comic art. Bill Sienkiewicz soon became one of my favorites and if you visit his website, you'll see why.

TiVo is Watching…From Afar

The other day, I linked to an article not unlike this one that said that the TiVo people are selling, or are about to start selling, data about the viewing patterns of TiVo users. My initial reaction was negative but on reflection, I don't think it's that big a deal. The information at issue is only identified by zip code, meaning that someone will find out that some guy in the 90036 area watched Leno and Conan O'Brien tonight, then skipped through Letterman and watched the late night block on the Game Show Network. That's not much of an invasion of privacy, so I withdraw any concerns I may have implied.

If even that much prying into what you watch bothers you, you can opt out by calling TiVo Central at (877) 367-8486. But I can't imagine that anyone would care that much.

Harvey E.

Five days a week, my pal Scott Shaw! posts an unusual comic book cover over at Comic Book Resources and provides clever and informative commentary. In this installment, he features a comic called Foxy Fagan that was drawn by the late Harvey Eisenberg, one of the great unsung cartoonists. Eisenberg was the main artist on the Tom & Jerry comics published by Dell and Gold Key, as well as many of the Hanna-Barbera comics from the same company. He was amazingly prolific, especially when you realize that for much of the time, he was moonlighting from animation studios. Among other gigs, he had a lot to do with the look and feel of the early Hanna-Barbera shows. (One day when we were both working at the studio, Scott found the original artwork to the storyboards for the first Top Cat episode — drawn by H. Eisenberg — and a full set of stats in a dumpster out back. Scott kept the originals for himself, natch, but was nice enough to give me the stats. They're very detailed, since they were used in the sale of the show, and you can see where the lead character's name has been changed. Originally, the show was going to be called Top Cats — plural, referring to them all — and the Bilko-like ringleader was going to be called J.B., as in "Joe Barbera.")

Anyway, Eisenberg was great and his work is avidly studied by animation artists, especially his knack for posing characters so they have weight and movement. His son Jerry is now one of the best designers in the animation business, and one of these days I want to drag him to a San Diego Convention and have him participate in one of those "Quick Draw" cartooning wars we stage there.

Anyway, the other interesting thing about Foxy Fagan is that the comic was published by a short-lived company called Dearfield Publishing. I don't think it's ever been mentioned in any history of comics or animation anywhere, but this company was co-owned by Harvey Eisenberg and Joe Barbera. Yes, that Joe Barbera. Their names apparently appear nowhere on any of their comics because the two of them were then under contract to MGM — Barbera, producing and directing Tom & Jerry cartoons; Eisenberg, designing and doing key layouts. But they got together on the sly and put out some comics, and Barbera at least created some of the characters if he didn't actually write some of the scripts. As far as I know, Scott is the first historian to ever report this anywhere.

Bill vs. Al

I thought the Bill O'Reilly/Al Franken dust-up on C-Span was interesting in a World Wrestling Federation sense. Franken did manage to nail O'Reilly on a lie, and O'Reilly responded about as Franken would have scripted it: By trying to shout him down and demand that the topic be changed. That's the modus operandi of just about everyone who hosts a political discussion kind of show these days. When was the last time Rush Limbaugh participated in a discussion where he couldn't shut off his opponent with the push of a button? The thing about O'Reilly is that he goes on other folks' shows, or appears on panels where he has equal status as the other speakers, and expects to control what is and isn't discussed — and usually, he succeeds. Just before the luncheon with Franken and Molly Ivins, O'Reilly appeared on a live phone-in interview and every time a caller got near a topic that O'Reilly didn't like, he insulted them and bullied the interviewer into going to the next call.

Anyway, if you want to see the brouhaha, you have two choices. C-Span (or maybe C-Span2) is rerunning it on Sunday. Consult their website for the exact time.

Or if you have RealPlayer installed, you can watch it online, at least for a while, at this website. Scroll down the page until you find it. According to Rob Means…

It's an hour and a half long, and starts with Molly Ivins (worth watching in her own right). O'Reilly's talk begins at about the 18 minute mark; Franken starts at about 29:00 (and ends "35 minutes later", at 48:30). Be sure to watch O'Reilly's body language during Franken's talk — it's hysterical. He starts talking about O'Reilly at about 41:15. O'Reilly tells him to "Shut up" at 49:00.

Actually, I liked Molly Ivins more than either of the guys…but I'll tell you what I think was going through O'Reilly's mind as Franken dragged him through the mud. O'Reilly's a smart guy and I think he was thinking, "Franken's found a great act. He's going to make a ton of money — selling books, getting lecture gigs, maybe even getting a radio show up and running — by attacking me and other conservatives. So we're going to hear a lot of it." A lot of folks got rich and famous via Clinton-bashing and there's a growing market for rip jobs on Bush and the right wing.

Jerry Lewis Cinemas, cont'd

The thread here about the Jerry Lewis Theaters has brought a lot of e-mail. Here are some excerpts, starting with this message from Fred Hembeck…

I've been enjoying the extensive discussion regarding the Jerry Lewis Theater Chain (which I just this morning had the chance to read) over at your site, and I can attest to the following facts: the Jerry Cinema located in the town of Coram, fifty odd miles away from NYC on bucolic Long Island, amidst a thriving shopping center, and across from a popular Pathmark grocery store, morphed immediately from a failing flight of a funnyman's financial fancy into a venue blatantly showing triple X-rated features!! Whether there was any confusion during the turnover process with marquees et al, and whether the infamous Linda Lovelace starrer was ever there, I couldn't tell you, but the transition DID happen in (virtually) my home town. How can I be so sure, you ask? Well, while I never actually plunked any money down to support Jerry's particular dream, I, um, did take in the odd feature at the revamped picture palace — and lemme tell ya, some of 'em were pretty odd!?! Actually, I have a pretty funny story concerning my intial visit with the new tenants, but hey, I've gotta save SOMETHING for my own website, don't I? Well, if nothing else, maybe this'll spur me on to finally commit that story to the keyboard!

We'll watch for it over on www.hembeck.com. (It's not up yet, but Fred's site is well worth visiting anyway.) Now, this message comes from Jim Hanley…

Just thought I'd mention that while the central company may have failed, we had a Jerry Lewis Cinema on Staten Island until at least 1976. I distinctly remember seeing The Pink Panther Strikes Again there, which IMDB lists as coming out that year. I don't know if that means that they had replaced their projection equipment or not, but considering how many theaters had closed on SI in the years before that, second hand equipment was probably easy to come by. And it always seemed appropriate that the other occupant of the lot with the Jerry Lewis was an Arthur Treacher's Fish and Chips stand.

And I wonder how many people who know the name of Arthur Treacher know that he was an actor (and Merv Griffin's sidekick) who had nothing to do with fish and chips besides being British and selling his name to a franchise operation? Probably the same number who'd be amazed to know that there was actually a Roy Rogers and that, apart from lending his moniker to a bad fast food chain, he made movies. Anyway, thanks, Jim. And now this next one is from Darren J. Hudak…

All this talk about the Jerry Lewis theaters brought back fond memories. There was a Jerry Lewis theater in the New Jersey town where I grew up. It was the theater where my parents took me to see the first movie I ever saw in a theater. The Barbara Striesand film What's Up, Doc? I behaved so badly that it was years before my parents every took me to another film. (I think I sat still during the two minutes that Bugs Bunny appeared at the end, other then that I was anything but well behaved). I do remember the cardboard standup of Jerry that stood in the lobby along with a mural of famous film figures from the past. At one point in the 70's, it stopped calling itself the Jerry Lewis theater but for years everyone referred to it as the Jerry Lewis theater. During this time the cardboard cutout of Jerry was gone but the mural of famous film figures from the past stayed for years to come. For what seemed like forever, (but was probably only a few months) it did show the x-rated film Caligula, probably adding to the urban legend. (I remember this because my Mom went shopping at the supermarket across the street and every shopping trip during this time included a complaint about "that movie"). It then closed for a few months and reopened showing more traditional fare, and there were many movies I remember seeing there. At some point in the 80's they put a wall down the middle of the theater in an attempt to turn it into a multiplex, (actually a two plex). The mural of famous film figures was also painted over at this time. About 6 years ago they finally tore down the theater and put up a Rite Aid drug store. This depressed me greatly since not only was this the first place I saw a movie but also the place where, (at age 15), I first kissed a girl. Anyway thanx for bringing up the memories of a place from my youth that will never exist again.

Lastly, here's one from my old fanzine pal, Wayne DeWald…

I know for a fact that a Jerry Lewis Cinema in South Miami did indeed show hardcore porn. (er…that is a good friend of mine TOLD me that it did…I of course would not have any personal knowledge.)

On further reflection, maybe the name of the place changed before the fare became hard core. No question it was the same building, but maybe there had been a name change. I wasn't — I mean, my friend wasn't — as concerned about the name of the theater as much as what really happened Behind the Green Door, which was the feature film.

Okay, I'm now convinced that it's possible/probable that some of the Jerry Lewis Theaters did turn to porn at some point. And if Jerry ever did see his name on a theater marquee along with that of Linda Lovelace, it was probably in that context. I still don't believe any theater would book a genuine hardcore sex film with a Jerry Lewis movie. Anyway, I think I've had enough of this topic for now, but I thank all the participants. (Oh — one more related trivial aside. Once upon a time, there was a Jerry Lewis restaurant at the corner of Sunset Boulevard and Larrabee. It went out of business and was eventually replaced by a strip joint called The Classic Cat. It's now a Tower Video, right across from the infamous Viper Room where all the big rock stars go to overdose.)

No Whammies!

Game Show Network ran the first part of the infamous Michael Larson win this morning on Press Your Luck. Larson, you'll recall, is the guy who figured out how to beat that show's game board for more than $100,000 and forced them — for the one and only time — to spread a game out over two consecutive shows. This was done via some sloppy but unavoidable editing which, in its own way, contributed to the sense that Larson really caught the show (and CBS) off-guard. If you'd like to watch the second half as it originally aired, it's on tomorrow (Wednesday) morning at 5:30 AM East Coast, 8:30 Pacific. Almost all of the footage was used in that documentary that GSN aired a few months ago but this'll give you a better sense of how stunned everyone was. [Caution: If you don't know the whole story or don't know how the game is played, you may not understand what's going on.]

Warning: Commercial Content!

wertham

I have a new book, Wertham Was Right, coming in July from the fine folks at TwoMorrows Books. This is a follow-up to last year's Comic Books and Other Necessities of Life, which was a collection of columns I wrote for the Comics Buyer's Guide. The new book is more of the same. Some of the articles have been heavily revised since their initial publication and a few have never been published anywhere, including the title article. In it, I argue that Dr. Fredric Wertham, noted foe of the comic book industry in the fifties, was not completely responsible for the Comics Code and the wholesale censorship of the Art Form, nor was he completely wrong in all that he wrote. Some things, yes — but not everything.

There are also articles in there about Bob Kane, Gil Kane, The Fox and the Crow, Sergio appearing on QVC, the screwy way in which comic books are numbered, and other topics that will interest anyone who's interested in comics. None of the pieces in either book is available for reading on this website but there are others that will give you a little taste of the kind of thing I write when I write about comics.

You can advance-order Wertham Was Right by clicking on that name…and while you're at it, order a copy of Comic Books and Other Necessities of Life if you don't have one, or even if you do. End of plug.

Comic Website of the Day

Did you ever see Rita Rudner perform live? I did, and she was very funny. She has a funny website, too. With a comic strip about her and everything.

Comic Artist Website of the Day

My pal Bill Wray is one of those guys who started out to do DC and Marvel type comics but eventually learned there was more to life than that…and more to himself than that. He's now among the more innovative, fresh stylists around. As you'll see when you hustle your little mouse over to his website.

Jerry Lewis Cinemas, Cont'd.

I'm getting a lot of mail about the Jerry Lewis Mini-Cinema fiasco. I thought this message from Buzz Dixon was worth bringing to your attention…

The reason two people could run a Jerry Lewis Theater was because the films arrived preloaded in large cartridges like the way airlines used to show movies. They were pre-threaded and easy to rewind with little chance of jamming (if the Jerry Lewis Theaters had stayed in business and the equipment gotten more wear and tear, that might not have been the case). The plan was that Person A would handle the box office while Person B would run the concession stand, Person B would pop up into the booth to start the trailer cartridge then return to the concession stand, Person A would close the box office and go up to supervise the projectors and keep an eye on the audience from the booth (Person B would try to cover both the box office for late arrivals and keep an eye on the concession stand), Person A would come down to cover the box office while Person B went to keep an eye on the audience and cover the concession stand, etc. The cartridges, while large and bulky, could be handled by an average adult, and switching reels consisted of little more than lifting one catridge out and dropping the other in.

The scheme had a single company — the Jerry Lewis Theater franchise, whatever the actually name of the company was called — controlling both the means of distribution and the means of exhibition, but not the means of production, thus making it okay under the Paramount, et al, ruling back in the forties. Since they owned the projector/cartridge system, and since they were relying on Mom & Pop operators who had no real experience in running theaters or projectors, and since the whole pitch was that they would show only G or M rated films (I believe they went under before M morphed into GP then PG), I think it would be unlikely that they would schedule R or X rated films. Further, the projectors could not run regular film reels so the theaters could not be easily/cheaply converted to run conventional films, thus guaranteeing their white elephant status to their investors and franchisees.

The biggest technical problem was not jamming, as one might expect (the franchise owners were trained in making emergency splices) but in focusing the lenses. Arc projectors throw out an enormous amount of heat and the lenses literally expand, thus throwing their focal length off. Competent projectionists (i.e., union) are constantly adjusting/readjusting the focus so subtlely that the audience isn't aware of it (though we've all had our chances to shout, "Focus!" at those who get caught napping). This, a lack of adequate brand management (some of the theaters were allowed to get quite dirty and sloppy due to inattentive regional supervisors), and changing movie going habits among the American people (basically families stopped going to the movies together) pretty much put the kibosh on the Jerry Lewis Theaters.

Was it a bad idea? Well, even now on paper it looks workable, and maybe it could have worked if they had relied on trained personnel instead of Mom & Pop owner/operators and been more flexible in their scheduling. In a way, you might say it was the right idea but the wrong technology: By the late 70s/early 80s Mom & Pop were running video stores, which was another cartridge technology, and instead of bearing the cost of operating a theater they just let the customers take the tapes home for the evening.

So the mystery of the Which Way To The Front?/Deep Throat double-feature continues. Unless somebody can produce an ad or a photo confirming it, it remains speculation. To add to the confusion, there was an R-rated sequel — Deep Throat, Part II — starring the same cast that played in non-porn houses (this may have actually been the original Deep Throat with the hardcore footage removed and new bridging material…uh…inserted).

Well, I still don't think it's a mystery. I think Jerry was wrong or confused or something. The notion that a Jerry Lewis movie might be paired with Deep Throat II makes a tiny bit more sense but I still think it's unlikely. The Internet Movie Database has this to say about the R-rated sequel, which received extremely limited release in 1974…

Filmed as triple-X porn, Deep Throat Part II was released only in a heavily-edited, R-rated version in hopes of avoiding the legal troubles plaguing the original Deep Throat (1972). The hardcore footage was then stolen and never restored.

And can we think of a movie for which there would be less of a market than Deep Throat without the sex scenes? Anyway, a bit of research yields the fact that the Jerry Lewis movie theater business collapsed in 1973. In that year and the few immediately preceding it, there weren't very many movies out there that people wanted to see which would have met the requirement of being "G" or "PG." The top three movies of 1972, for example, were The Godfather, Cabaret and Deliverance — all "R-rated." I also seem to remember some sort of accusation at the time that Disney would not rent its movies to the Jerry Lewis chain because they were planning to launch a network of Disney Theaters using a similar business model. Either way, there wasn't a whole lot Jerry's franchisees could show. Add in the problems mentioned earlier about bad locations, and it's not difficult to see why the enterprise failed.

The movie ratings started in 1968 with "G," "M", "R" and "X." The "M" stood for "mature" and it was supposed to denote movies that were more adult than "G" but still suitable for young adults. Unfortunately, the Motion Picture Association of America (which set all this up) discovered that much of the public thought "M" meant an adults-only movie, so in 1969 it was changed to "GP" (General, but with Parental Guidance) and then almost immediately to "PG" (Parental Guidance). So at the time of the Jerry Lewis Theaters, "PG" had already been invented.

Say, while I'm rambling, here's something I bet a lot of people don't know. The M.P.A.A. no longer has an "X" rating. They had one initially and the idea was that it would denote adult films that weren't in the realm of sex and exploitation. Midnight Cowboy, for instance, was X-rated. But the M.P.A.A. couldn't control the application of the label. It passed rapidly into the vocabulary and sex filmmakers began gleefully dubbing their product "X-rated" or even "XXX." In 1990, the M.P.A.A. changed their "X" rating to "NC-17," which only they can bestow. (Another change was that in '84, they split "PG" into two levels — "PG" and "PG-13," the latter denoting a slightly higher chance of seeing nudity or bloodshed. They're currently mulling over a "PS" rating which will caution moviegoers that the film may contain Pauly Shore.)

Winters' Discontent

The Winter Brothers have lost their lawsuit against DC Comics. They sued because they believed that some rather repulsive characters in a Jonah Hex comic were unflattering caricatures of themselves. This morning, the California State Supreme Court ruled (correctly, in my opinion) that it came under the category of parody and that was that. Here's a link to a fuller account.

Those Elusive Weapons…

Here's Spinsanity on the current status of whether or not the U.S. has located Weapons of Mass Destruction in Iraq. (Quick summary: Officially, no — but Bush says we have.)

Jerry Lewis Mini Cinemas (and Mini Profits)

Here's an e-mail from a reader here named Lloyd Fein…

Your item about the Jerry Lewis mini cinema chain brought back painful memories. My uncle (with whom I was living at the time) pretty much blew the family fortune investing in one. Back at my other place, I think I still have some of the literature they sent out. As I recall, they promised a lot of guaranteed profit and you didn't have to know anything about running a movie theater because Jerry Lewis was behind the venture and he knew everything and his name was magic. A lot of the magic seemed to be that you and one other person could run your own movie theater all by yourself without unions. My uncle was very anti-union and that was part of the appeal for him. He was fearlessly confident that the projectionist union was going to bankrupt the traditional movie theater and the future of the business would be in little places like the one he opened. He wanted to get in on the ground floor.

The trouble was that he went into a mall in New Jersey that was itself in trouble. The only time it did any business was during the day. It was like a ghost town in the evening and you can't support a movie theater on matinees. Even when there were people at the mall, they didn't go to see movies. They went to the Montgomery Ward store, bought blankets and went home. I also thought the name hurt the business. The Jerry Lewis Theater wasn't showing Jerry Lewis movies but I don't think people realized that.

You're right that it's ridiculous that any theater would run a Jerry Lewis movie and Deep Throat. What's the audience for both those films? And I doubt any Jerry Lewis movie ran Deep Throat but a lot of people don't understand the difference. To them any movie with five seconds of bare tits in it is Deep Throat. So maybe some Jerry Lewis mini cinemas ran some of the popular R-rated movies from then like The Godfather and people got confused or maybe some Jerry Lewis mini cinema converted to X-rated movies and there was a week there when they didn't have Jerry's name off the marquee yet.

Thanks — and that's a good point about people not knowing the difference between adult movies and Adult Movies. At one point in the seventies, CBS acquired a package of Warner Brothers films to air in the late movie slot they had before acquiring Mr. Letterman. Now, as anyone who knows anything about the business is aware, movies are often sold in packages, and the purchaser doesn't always air everything in the package. In this particular package, WB included the TV rights to air the 1969 Luchino Visconti movie, The Damned. This film — a portrait of life in Nazi Germany between World Wars — was about as far from Deep Throat as a movie without Don Knotts in it could be, but in its initial release, it had received an "X" rating for some non-arousing kinkiness. By the time it got tossed into the TV package, it had been re-rated "R" and it probably didn't even deserve that. In any case, the mere fact that it was involved in that transaction prompted a nationwide rumor/alert that CBS was about to start running "X-rated movies" (i.e., stuff like Deep Throat) in that time slot.

This gets back to an item here not long ago about a current "family values group" that is drumming up alarm about porn stars at comic conventions, and how such groups seem to need an outrage against which to crusade. Back in the seventies, similar groups started spreading the alarm that CBS was planning to air porn and that to save mankind, that had to be stopped…and oh, by the way, that will require donations, people. Amazing quantities of cash were given in the cause of stopping CBS's supposed plan, and the network was deluged with form letters protesting their ungodly plot to make Americans watch filth. CBS issued press releases and sent back form letters that said, in pretty simple language, "No one here has ever considered airing X-rated movies," but for years, that did not end the protests. The folks drumming-up the letter-writing campaign kept right on drumming. A friend of mine who worked at CBS at the time told me she was amazed at the outpouring based on a false premise, and said that they debated internally at the network: Did the leaders of this campaign simply not believe the denials? Or had they gone so far out on a limb that they were incapable of admitting they'd been wrong? Or had it simply been so profitable for them, in terms of selling memberships and bringing in donations, that they wanted to run it as long as possible? The third option was the prevailing choice but none of them speak well of the kind of folks who run such campaigns.

CBS did finally run The Damned in its late night slot, by the way. By that time, the protests had died down and the innocuous movie was rendered even more innocuous by editing-for-television. So no one cared. But it's very true that some people who get outraged about things simply don't understand what it is they think is outraging them.

And I also agree that the Jerry Lewis chain was off to a bad start because of the name. If you didn't like Jerry Lewis, having his name and likeness out front was a negative, even if you realized that they weren't running Jerry Lewis movies inside — and some folks probably didn't. If you did like Jerry Lewis, it was like, "Huh? There's no Jerry Lewis movie playing at the Jerry Lewis Theater!" So the potential customers were moviegoers who had no opinion either way on the subject of Jerry Lewis. That's always been a pretty small group.